Riverman
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#76
11-24-2023, 10:33 PM
The table which complements my post about the E-V13 distribution in Germans:
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...06#pid4006
from lukpl:
(11-24-2023, 09:25 PM)lukpl Wrote: I had data from GErman FTDNA project on Y-DNA distribution in modern and former German provinces. Although sheet is from few years admin who gave mi that recently told me not many changes in frequencies happened, except more samples.
Indeed Ev13 is popular in region showed before^^
From this thread and post: https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...03#pid4903
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rmstevens2
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#77
11-24-2023, 11:18 PM
Hopefully this is not too mulch of a disruption of this thread, but I know of at least one line in my pedigree that is E-V13: that of my second great grandfather, John Holmes (1830-1907).
He was a captain in the Confederate Army during the American Civil War, serving in Company E, 16th Mississippi Infantry. He served in Lee's Army of Northern Virginia and was in every major engagement except First Manassas (Bull Run). He was captured in 1864 at the Battle for the Weldon Railroad near Petersburg, Virginia, was sent to the Old Capitol Prison in Washington, DC, and then transferred to the prison for officers at Fort Delaware. He was paroled as part of a prisoner exchange in 1865 and sent by steamship to Savanah, Georgia. From there he made his way back home to Mississippi.
I know about his Y-DNA haplogroup from some Holmes cousins who are also AncestryDNA and Family Finder matches.
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Riverman
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#78
11-25-2023, 12:10 AM (This post was last modified: 11-25-2023, 12:10 AM by Riverman.)
(11-24-2023, 11:18 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: Hopefully this is not too mulch of a disruption of this thread, but I know of at least one line in my pedigree that is E-V13: that of my second great grandfather, John Holmes (1830-1907).He was a captain in the Confederate Army during the American Civil War, serving in Company E, 16th Mississippi Infantry. He served in Lee's Army of Northern Virginia and was in every major engagement except First Manassas (Bull Run). He was captured in 1864 at the Battle for the Weldon Railroad near Petersburg, Virginia, was sent to the Old Capitol Prison in Washington, DC, and then transferred to the prison for officers at Fort Delaware. He was paroled as part of a prisoner exchange in 1865 and sent by steamship to Savanah, Georgia. From there he made his way back home to Mississippi.
I know about his Y-DNA haplogroup from some Holmes cousins who are also AncestryDNA and Family Finder matches.
The Holmes I know about (not sure if its the same people, since Holmes is a common surname) belong to this subclade:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY6073/tree
They are a good example for the E-V13, especially E-Z5018, which seem to have split between England, Germany and Italy in the Hallstatt-La Tene period. I wrote about that observation on the old forum, that there are a lot of branches of E-V13, especially under E-Z5018, which have no recent overlap between the Balkans and the West, but a lot of overlap in the triangle of England-Germany <-> Italy <-> Carpathian basin.
I speculated about these branches having spread from North Thracians/Dacians through Vekerzug and La Tene backflow, after the La Tene Celts had taken over in Eastern Hallstatt and parts of the Carpatho-Balkan sphere. Some of it might date to the later Dacian, Roman and migration period, but that's not clear as of yet, since the timing of the branching events is usually clearly in the Pre-Christian, even La Tene period - as of yet, more sampling might change things and bring it closer to the Roman and migration period time frame.
And this branch of the Holmes, E-BY6073, is part of that story, having split from the Italian branch about 400 BC.
Other cases are even more clear though, because we have ancient DNA especially from Hungary at the root of the English-German-Italian distribution.
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rmstevens2
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#79
11-25-2023, 12:24 AM (This post was last modified: 11-25-2023, 12:26 AM by rmstevens2.)
My Holmes cousins are represented by Group 21 at the link below. Looks like none of them has done the Big Y-700.
The MDKA is Elisha Holmes, born in 1773 in Northern Ireland.
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#80
11-25-2023, 02:27 PM
Updated version of the German haplogroup distribtion from the FTDNA project:
(11-25-2023, 12:56 PM)lukpl Wrote: I found version from 2019 of German sheet, before was from 2018.
More detailed I clades.BTW current East Pomerania is here as West Prussia. East Pomerania is current Polish West Pomerania
Because German West Pomerania from the west of Odra is linked with Mecklemburg.
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...63#pid4963
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Riverman
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#81
11-27-2023, 01:25 PM (This post was last modified: 11-27-2023, 04:40 PM by Riverman.)
Since I am particularly interested in how the E-V13 branches ended up in different German regions, I looked up the few BigY tested individuals from some of the most important regions.
Eifel and adjacent areas:
E-BY160711 = pretty typical for the German-English-Italian trias, which I would associate with Eastern Hallstatt-Vekerzug and La Tene backflow rather, downstream of E-Z5018.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...60711/tree
E-FT64983 = similar pattern, again German and Italian.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT64983/tree
E-BY182688 = has an ancient DNA match: Pruszcz Gdański 495 (TMRCA 400 BC) and at the same distance is English:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...82688/tree
E-BY7426 = Dutch-British-French-German Early Iron Age split. Could be anything from LBA onwards, but looks more deeply rooted in Central-Western Europe:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY7426/tree
E-FT18667 = 2 German, 1 Greek and 1 British branch - otherwise too upstream and rather undefined. Could be many origins in the later periods. However, a very West : East distribution in recent times, this might point to a later Iron Age into Roman origin for the Western distribution.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT18667/tree
E-BY4601 = British-German split in the above mentioned timeline for Eastern Hallstatt-Vekerzug and La Tene backflow.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY4601/tree
Baden-Alsace and adjacent areas:
E-CTS11286 = Too upstream and rather undefined. Could be many origins in the later periods.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...11286/tree
E-FTB92833 = Multiple German, one English and Swiss parallel branches, also one Balkan one:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...92833/tree
E-FT148901 = Scandinavian-French-British:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...09277/tree
E-FT13421 = Looks very Hallstatt-Vekerzug into La Tene, with multiple Western branches in South Western Germany, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Slovakia going back to about 600 BC:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT13421/tree
Franconia and adjacent areas:
E-A1157 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-A1157/tree
E-FT13909 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT13909/tree
E-Z16663 = Too upstream and rather undefined. Could be many origins in the later periods. The surname might point to a Medieval Romance origin though.
E-Z39377 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-Z39377/tree
E-BY5856 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY5856/tree
This is a miniscule sample, but in Franconia and adjacent areas, E-S3003/E-L540 plays a disproportionate role in the E-V13 distribution it seems. This is either due to a Slavic founder and/or a Germanic-Slavic founder, in any case a more Eastern origin with a big founder event. Even in the areas of neighbouring Bohemia the diversity is higher and different, going after German Bohemian samples available.
That the dominance of E-S3003 seems to be so dominant in the Eastern zone of E-V13 higher frequencies is remarkable and its a candidate for an E-V13 Proto-/Early Slavic founder.
The picture in the Western centre of E-V13 distribution around Eifel and South Hesse, similar in Baden is completely different and points to a more Hallstatt-Vekerzug and Celtic to Roman origin, with some possible Germanic backflow from the East being possible for some branches. The predominant picture is that of a Hallstatt-La Tene Celtic spread so far.
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#82
11-27-2023, 01:42 PM
(11-27-2023, 01:25 PM)Riverman Wrote: Since I am particularly interested in how the E-V13 branches ended up in different German regions, I looked up the few BigY tested individuals from some of the most important regions.Eifel and adjacent areas:
E-BY160711 = pretty typical for the German-English-Italian trias, which I would associate with Eastern Hallstatt-Vekerzug and La Tene backflow rather, downstream of E-Z5018.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...60711/treeE-FT64983 = similar pattern, again German and Italian.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT64983/treeE-BY182688 = has an ancient DNA match: Pruszcz Gdański 495 (TMRCA 400 BC) and at the same distance is English:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...82688/treeE-BY7426 = Dutch-British-French-German Early Iron Age split. Could be anything from LBA onwards, but looks more deeply rooted in Central-Western Europe:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY7426/treeE-FT18667 = 2 German, 1 Greek and 1 British branch - otherwise too upstream and rather undefined. Could be many origins in the later periods. However, a very West : East distribution in recent times, this might point to a later Iron Age into Roman origin for the Western distribution.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT18667/treeE-BY4601 = British-German split in the above mentioned timeline for Eastern Hallstatt-Vekerzug and La Tene backflow.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY4601/treeBaden-Alsace and adjacent areas:
E-CTS11286 = Too upstream and rather undefined. Could be many origins in the later periods.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...11286/treeE-FTB92833 = Multiple German, one English and Swiss parallel branches, also one Balkan one:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...92833/treeE-FT148901 = Scandinavian-French-British:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...09277/treeE-FT13421 = Looks very Hallstatt-Vekerzug into La Tene, with multiple Western branches in South Western Germany, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Slovakia going back to about 600 BC:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT13421/treeFranconia and adjacent areas:
E-A1157 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-A1157/treeE-FT13909 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT13909/treeE-Z16663 = Too upstream and rather undefined. Could be many origins in the later periods.
E-Z39377 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-Z39377/treeE-BY5856 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY5856/treeThis is a miniscule sample, but in Franconia and adjacent areas, E-S3003/E-L540 plays a disproportionate role in the E-V13 distribution it seems. This is either due to a Slavic founder and/or a Germanic-Slavic founder, in any case a more Eastern origin with a big founder event. Even in the areas of neighbouring Bohemia the diversity is higher and different, going after German Bohemian samples available.
That the dominance of E-S3003 seems to be so dominant in the Eastern zone of E-V13 higher frequencies is remarkable and its a candidate for an E-V13 Proto-/Early Slavic founder.The picture in the Western centre of E-V13 distribution around Eifel and South Hesse, similar in Baden is completely different and points to a more Hallstatt-Vekerzug and Celtic to Roman origin, with some possible Germanic backflow from the East being possible for some branches. The predominant picture is that of a Hallstatt-La Tene Celtic spread so far.
E-S3003 is seems to me is subclade shared between slavic and Germanic
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Y-DNA: E-A30032< A30480 ~1610 CE
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Riverman
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11-27-2023, 01:54 PM
(11-27-2023, 01:42 PM)Capsian20 Wrote:(11-27-2023, 01:25 PM)Riverman Wrote: Since I am particularly interested in how the E-V13 branches ended up in different German regions, I looked up the few BigY tested individuals from some of the most important regions.Eifel and adjacent areas:
E-BY160711 = pretty typical for the German-English-Italian trias, which I would associate with Eastern Hallstatt-Vekerzug and La Tene backflow rather, downstream of E-Z5018.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...60711/treeE-FT64983 = similar pattern, again German and Italian.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT64983/treeE-BY182688 = has an ancient DNA match: Pruszcz Gdański 495 (TMRCA 400 BC) and at the same distance is English:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...82688/treeE-BY7426 = Dutch-British-French-German Early Iron Age split. Could be anything from LBA onwards, but looks more deeply rooted in Central-Western Europe:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY7426/treeE-FT18667 = 2 German, 1 Greek and 1 British branch - otherwise too upstream and rather undefined. Could be many origins in the later periods. However, a very West : East distribution in recent times, this might point to a later Iron Age into Roman origin for the Western distribution.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT18667/treeE-BY4601 = British-German split in the above mentioned timeline for Eastern Hallstatt-Vekerzug and La Tene backflow.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY4601/treeBaden-Alsace and adjacent areas:
E-CTS11286 = Too upstream and rather undefined. Could be many origins in the later periods.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...11286/treeE-FTB92833 = Multiple German, one English and Swiss parallel branches, also one Balkan one:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...92833/treeE-FT148901 = Scandinavian-French-British:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...09277/treeE-FT13421 = Looks very Hallstatt-Vekerzug into La Tene, with multiple Western branches in South Western Germany, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Slovakia going back to about 600 BC:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT13421/treeFranconia and adjacent areas:
E-A1157 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-A1157/treeE-FT13909 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT13909/treeE-Z16663 = Too upstream and rather undefined. Could be many origins in the later periods.
E-Z39377 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-Z39377/treeE-BY5856 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY5856/treeThis is a miniscule sample, but in Franconia and adjacent areas, E-S3003/E-L540 plays a disproportionate role in the E-V13 distribution it seems. This is either due to a Slavic founder and/or a Germanic-Slavic founder, in any case a more Eastern origin with a big founder event. Even in the areas of neighbouring Bohemia the diversity is higher and different, going after German Bohemian samples available.
That the dominance of E-S3003 seems to be so dominant in the Eastern zone of E-V13 higher frequencies is remarkable and its a candidate for an E-V13 Proto-/Early Slavic founder.The picture in the Western centre of E-V13 distribution around Eifel and South Hesse, similar in Baden is completely different and points to a more Hallstatt-Vekerzug and Celtic to Roman origin, with some possible Germanic backflow from the East being possible for some branches. The predominant picture is that of a Hallstatt-La Tene Celtic spread so far.
E-S3003 is seems to me is subclade shared between slavic and Germanic
It is a very interesting branch, because its isolated in the E-V13 tree, with all moderns so far sampled belonging to the branch of a fairly which lived in the first century AD. I once speculated that it is a branch related to the Lusatians and living around Poland, the North Carpathians before the Common Era.
When it was picked up by East Germanics and secondarily by Slavs probably.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-S3003/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/
Its fairly common both in Germanics and Slavs, which makes it difficult to pin it down. The only current ancient DNA sample is clearly Slavic from Krakauer Berg, Germany.
Such recente founder events around 800 AD are fairly uncommon in Germans, especially in the badly sampled East, which further supports an huge Slavic founder event, rather, in my opiniion.
It is definitely one of the most common Slavic branches of E-V13, if not the most common.
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Capsian20
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#84
11-27-2023, 01:59 PM
(11-27-2023, 01:54 PM)Riverman Wrote:(11-27-2023, 01:42 PM)Capsian20 Wrote:(11-27-2023, 01:25 PM)Riverman Wrote: Since I am particularly interested in how the E-V13 branches ended up in different German regions, I looked up the few BigY tested individuals from some of the most important regions.Eifel and adjacent areas:
E-BY160711 = pretty typical for the German-English-Italian trias, which I would associate with Eastern Hallstatt-Vekerzug and La Tene backflow rather, downstream of E-Z5018.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...60711/treeE-FT64983 = similar pattern, again German and Italian.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT64983/treeE-BY182688 = has an ancient DNA match: Pruszcz Gdański 495 (TMRCA 400 BC) and at the same distance is English:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...82688/treeE-BY7426 = Dutch-British-French-German Early Iron Age split. Could be anything from LBA onwards, but looks more deeply rooted in Central-Western Europe:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY7426/treeE-FT18667 = 2 German, 1 Greek and 1 British branch - otherwise too upstream and rather undefined. Could be many origins in the later periods. However, a very West : East distribution in recent times, this might point to a later Iron Age into Roman origin for the Western distribution.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT18667/treeE-BY4601 = British-German split in the above mentioned timeline for Eastern Hallstatt-Vekerzug and La Tene backflow.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY4601/treeBaden-Alsace and adjacent areas:
E-CTS11286 = Too upstream and rather undefined. Could be many origins in the later periods.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...11286/treeE-FTB92833 = Multiple German, one English and Swiss parallel branches, also one Balkan one:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...92833/treeE-FT148901 = Scandinavian-French-British:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...09277/treeE-FT13421 = Looks very Hallstatt-Vekerzug into La Tene, with multiple Western branches in South Western Germany, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Slovakia going back to about 600 BC:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT13421/treeFranconia and adjacent areas:
E-A1157 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-A1157/treeE-FT13909 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT13909/treeE-Z16663 = Too upstream and rather undefined. Could be many origins in the later periods.
E-Z39377 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-Z39377/treeE-BY5856 = Slavo-Germanic branch (downstream of E-S3003 aka E-L540 on YFull), more common in Eastern Germans:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY5856/treeThis is a miniscule sample, but in Franconia and adjacent areas, E-S3003/E-L540 plays a disproportionate role in the E-V13 distribution it seems. This is either due to a Slavic founder and/or a Germanic-Slavic founder, in any case a more Eastern origin with a big founder event. Even in the areas of neighbouring Bohemia the diversity is higher and different, going after German Bohemian samples available.
That the dominance of E-S3003 seems to be so dominant in the Eastern zone of E-V13 higher frequencies is remarkable and its a candidate for an E-V13 Proto-/Early Slavic founder.The picture in the Western centre of E-V13 distribution around Eifel and South Hesse, similar in Baden is completely different and points to a more Hallstatt-Vekerzug and Celtic to Roman origin, with some possible Germanic backflow from the East being possible for some branches. The predominant picture is that of a Hallstatt-La Tene Celtic spread so far.
E-S3003 is seems to me is subclade shared between slavic and Germanic
It is a very interesting branch, because its isolated in the E-V13 tree, with all moderns so far sampled belonging to the branch of a fairly which lived in the first century AD. I once speculated that it is a branch related to the Lusatians and living around Poland, the North Carpathians before the Common Era.
When it was picked up by East Germanics and secondarily by Slavs probably.https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-S3003/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/Its fairly common both in Germanics and Slavs, which makes it difficult to pin it down. The only current ancient DNA sample is clearly Slavic from Krakauer Berg, Germany.
Such recente founder events around 800 AD are fairly uncommon in Germans, especially in the badly sampled East, which further supports an huge Slavic founder event, rather, in my opiniion.It is definitely one of the most common Slavic branches of E-V13, if not the most common.
sample ancient KR005 i have been seen it's closer to population Slavic
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Target: CapsianWGS_scaled
Distance: 1.2510% / 0.01251049
37.2 Iberomaurusian
36.8 Early_European_Farmer
12.8 Early_Levantine_Farmer
8.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
4.8 SSA
0.4 Iran_Neolithic
FTDNA : 91% North Africa +<2% Bedouin + <2 Southern-Levantinfo + <1 Sephardic Jewish + 3% Malta + 3% Iberian Peninsula
23andME : 100% North Africa
WGS ( Y-DNA and mtDNA)
Y-DNA: E-A30032< A30480 ~1610 CE
mtDNA: V25b 800CE ? ( age mtDNA not accurate )
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Riverman
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#85
11-27-2023, 02:07 PM
He is a typical West Slavic individual for Central-Eastern Germany.
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Capsian20
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#86
11-27-2023, 04:05 PM (This post was last modified: 11-27-2023, 04:06 PM by Capsian20.)
Well @Riverman
I created this Map about samples E-PF2179* ( × Z1919 , × Z1902 )
i would mean E-M521 and E-V1133
this according samples FTDNA and Academic samples
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-V1133/tree
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2008249
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl...ne.0081704
Well these both subclades are linked with spreading E-L618 in Europe ? or does this subclades have other history ?
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Target: CapsianWGS_scaled
Distance: 1.2510% / 0.01251049
37.2 Iberomaurusian
36.8 Early_European_Farmer
12.8 Early_Levantine_Farmer
8.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
4.8 SSA
0.4 Iran_Neolithic
FTDNA : 91% North Africa +<2% Bedouin + <2 Southern-Levantinfo + <1 Sephardic Jewish + 3% Malta + 3% Iberian Peninsula
23andME : 100% North Africa
WGS ( Y-DNA and mtDNA)
Y-DNA: E-A30032< A30480 ~1610 CE
mtDNA: V25b 800CE ? ( age mtDNA not accurate )
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Manofthehour
Member
Posts: 84
Threads: 7
Joined: Sep 2023
Gender: Male
Ethnicity: NW European
Y-DNA (P): R-U152>Z56>Z43>Z46..
Y-DNA (M): R-M222
mtDNA (M): K1a
mtDNA (P): H5a1
#87
11-27-2023, 08:52 PM
Learning more about this and also about the spread of J2 lineages throughout all of Europe to me makes the "We wuz Trojans" meme embraced by those such as the Romans, Franks, Norse (Odin/Aesir) etc... considerably less bogus. Sorry if too much of a digression or redundancy but it's recently dawned on me and I found it noteworthy.
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U152>Z56>Z43>Z46>Z48>Z44>CTS8949>FTC82256 Lindeman
M222...>DF105>ZZ87>S588>S7814 Toner
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corrigendum
Senior Member
Posts: 289
Threads: 2
Joined: Oct 2023
#88
11-27-2023, 11:25 PM
(11-27-2023, 01:25 PM)Riverman Wrote: That the dominance of E-S3003 seems to be so dominant in the Eastern zone of E-V13 higher frequencies is remarkable and its a candidate for an E-V13 Proto-/Early Slavic founder.The picture in the Western centre of E-V13 distribution around Eifel and South Hesse, similar in Baden is completely different and points to a more Hallstatt-Vekerzug and Celtic to Roman origin, with some possible Germanic backflow from the East being possible for some branches. The predominant picture is that of a Hallstatt-La Tene Celtic spread so far.
The predominant picture so far for Germany is what the aDNA record has shown: most E-V13 in Germany is linked to Roman movements and this is what the oldest profiles from Germany suggest. The fact that today there are multiple E-V13 branches among Germans doesn't suggest the opposite.
E-L540 in central Europe represents a founder effect which dates to the Roman era based on existing data. All E-L540 carriers descend from a single man who lived around 30-120CE. The branch which seems to have been linked to medieval Poles has an in-group MRCA in the early medieval era (E-A6295).
Distance to: Germany_Late_Antiquity-Early_Medieval_Alt-Inden (400-800 CE)
0.02812736 Italian_Calabria
0.02935658 Greek_Dodecanese
0.03000592 Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes
0.03054806 Greek_Kos
0.03175097 Italian_Campania
0.03208173 Greek_Crete_Lasithi
0.03298907 Sicilian_East
0.03326448 Italian_Jew
0.03343843 Romaniote_Jew
0.03352103 Greek_Crete
0.03429179 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.03440104 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.03461853 Italian_Basilicata
0.03514645 Sephardic_Jew
0.03554911 Italian_Apulia
0.03717128 Cypriot
0.03747990 Greek_Crete_Heraklion
0.03749885 Greek_Cyclades_Milos
0.03837374 Greek_Cyclades_Tinos
0.03859304 Greek_Apulia
0.03896963 Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos
0.03911550 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.03926215 Maltese
0.04054840 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.04073552 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
The single E-V13 from La Tene Czechia might not actually come from this era as it has no radiocarbon dating and it has a modern German profile. If it was radiocarbon dated, it would potentially come up as a medieval sample. Similar concerns have been raised for other non-radiocarbon dated samples in this site:https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2022/01/m...ntity.html
Distanc
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Riverman
Posting Freak
Posts: 834
Threads: 14
Joined: Sep 2023
#89
11-28-2023, 11:07 AM
E-V13 was surely common in Vekerzug ans Dacians which came under Celtic influence in the La Tene period.
However, we need to get more samples to really know how each branch spread and when.
There will be Celtic ans Roman era samples from Germany, this might help.
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Southpaw
Member
Posts: 224
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Joined: Dec 2023
Gender: Male
Ethnicity: Albanian
Y-DNA (P): E-V13 -> S2979
#90
12-10-2023, 11:14 AM (This post was last modified: 12-10-2023, 11:26 AM by Southpaw.)
There are two Cultures crucial for E-V13,
- The Iron-Age Stamped-Ware which originates in-between Balkan Mountains/Haemus Mountains and Southern Carpathians, it's derivatives are also known as Earlier Hallstattian Cultures attested at almost 100% E-V13 in Psenicevo Culture in South-Eastern Thrace among the ritual pits.
- Gava and related Channeled-Ware Cultures originating slightly more north than Southern Carpathian Mountains, likely related population to their southern cousins.
I do believe that Gava/Channeled-Ware should have had E-V13 as well, just not sure whether it had the same amount as Stamped-Ware.
Stamped-Ware horizon colonized almost all Eastern-Balkans and penetrated in North-Western Anatolia, likely the so called Muski in Hittite records were some Proto-Thracian tribe wandering around in Anatolia, it's reminiscent of Mysi/Moesians.
All in all, i do strongly believe that E-V13 was related to the South/Eastern Urnfield phenomenon which created the so called Balkan-Carpathian Cultural Complex.
I suspect that we might see some E-V13 among Pannonian-Illyrians and post LBA Greece where archaeologically similar people were present.
As for Chalcolithic origin, i am highly optimistic that actual E-V13 mutation happened among Vinca Culture, who after the Yamnaya invasion retreated in Haemus/Carpathian mountain chain.
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